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What We Talk About

Think you only need one decent headshot and you’re good to go? Not if you’re building your business online, you’re not! 

In this episode, we’ll talk about the importance of your photo shoot – including where you can use your new brand imagery, how to figure out WHAT that brand should look like, and the all important thing: how do I prepare for this anyway?!

If you’re building your brand online, leveraging a social media presence, or selling courses, programs and services… your audience NEEDS to know who you are. This episode will help.


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Our transcript hasn't been proofed, so there will probably be some errors. Sorry about that!

Alyson Lex 0:03
I have recently gone through a bit of a process of figuring out how I'm going to show up online. And we can call this rebranding, we can call this getting clear, we can call it whatever we want. But part of that process was a photo shoot, and Jenny and I have had clients that have had to do the same thing. And it's always a little tricky to figure out what those photos are going to look like. To stay in line with all of the other stuff we've spent all this time figuring out in our business. Jenny had the amazing opportunity to meet Natalie and Laney, who is a brand strategist and photographer, when she helped one of our clients do exactly what I'm talking about. And Natalie has agreed to be on the show today. So Natalie, thanks for joining us.

Nathalie Amlani 0:55
Hello, I'm so excited to be here.

Alyson Lex 0:58
So talk to me real quick, about why it's so important to have brand photos, because it's not a small investment. Right? So why should we be spending the money on this?

Nathalie Amlani 1:13
It's such it's not a straightforward thing to answer. But what I can say is that when you have brand photos, when a business has brand photos, it really showcases that they mean business. So they're investing in their brand investing in showing up and representing themselves and showcasing themselves, which then in turn, will encourage others to invest in them. Right. And with brand photos, you may think like what exactly are brand photos? Brand photos? Can be pictures of I don't know, like you may think is it a picture of the logo, the brand, but what I'm like, but what I really specialize in is like personal branding photos. So it's the picture of the actual business owner, right, so the business owner in action. And if you are a product based business, then yeah, you may have just pictures of your product. But I'm going to encourage you to have some product lifestyle images of people using the product and at least having some images of the brand owner holding the product itself so that you can kind of tie a face to the product. Right. So you're tying a face to the product or service so that people can really connect with your brand. And the reason why you want those photos is because it'll help to create the connection, which I just mentioned. The and then deepening that trust, right. And it makes that business unique, because there can be many people doing the same thing many people doing, you know, like copy social media strategy, lots of people making lipstick brands, you know, but when you have the image of the people using it and in and the business owner itself, that's what makes it unique.

Jennie Wright 2:53
And how do you support coaches, course creators, people with a virtual business, not a product in hand? How do the brand photos change and reflect that?

Nathalie Amlani 3:04
Yeah, so coaches is like actually one of my top types of clients that I helped to service. And with coaches, they really want to position themselves as the expert in their fields, be thought leader, right. So it's having the versatile batch of images of themselves, just doing their thing, right. So it could be as simple as sitting on a couch or leaning forward on the counter or just hanging out going for a walk. And you may think what's so special about that, but that showcasing them in their element, their confidence, their vibe, really shining through the photo. And with those photos, there's so many things that you can do, it's just so versatile, you can attach it to a launch, you can put graphics on it, you can attach a really intriguing key message to their image, if they're a guest speaker, because most of the time, you know, like someone who's a coach, they may be doing a lot of expert talks, right? So they want to showcase their image, their vibe to these large scale audiences.

Jennie Wright 4:06
You said a lot there that just sings to my heart, because you and I have had some offline conversations about and we had one with you and Alison as well. But we talked about the ROI of doing these brand photoshoots. And first of all, there's a whole I mean, we haven't even talked about the whole get ready for it. I mean, we're not even going to get there probably but if we can get to that today, great. But I really want to go where I want to jump ahead 15 steps and I want to talk about the ROI of coming out of these things because one of the things that you mentioned was is a lot of people who are coaches course creators like the virtual online sort of business people like ourselves like Alyson and I we don't have a product to showcase. We are technically the product. The usage of those photos is great for speaking like you said is great for social media. But the other ROI, especially for somebody like me who is a funnel builder is Is the embedding and the use of those pictures as a modality to help increase know like and trust and get conversions on landing pages and sales pages? Can you talk a little bit about how that you know how brand photoshoot could convert in that way?

Nathalie Amlani 5:16
Yes, for sure. So shoot Alyssa doing a branch, a brand photo shoot for you. No one is up in your social media game, but also for launches is really key. So you may wonder like, why do I need so many photos of myself? Why can I just do the same one over and over, right? So imagine that you're a coach or a course creator, and you're launching, right? So you're inviting people perhaps to a webinar or a challenge or whatever kind of lead magnet that you may have. And then you want that those people to see you constantly, whether you're presenting inviting them to I don't know, that consume any sort of content, when your face is in it, then they start to connect with you. And then when they keep seeing you, even in the emails on the different landing pages, sales pages, and they keep seeing your face, they're like, I feel like I'm starting to get them to like know them a little bit more and better. And there starts to be a little more personality and attachment to the content being consumed. But imagine that you're consuming something that doesn't have images, it's just empty, it's just words. It's like who's was creating this, it could be anyone, right? So you can see that there's a different feeling between the two scenarios. So for the return on investment, you are literally putting yourself out there you are staying top of mind, which helps the person to make the decision quicker, because they feel like they know you they feel like they can trust you. And that is really the main kind of decision point. Can I trust this person with what they have to offer? Right? It's like everyone is capable of doing it. But can I trust them? Can I give them all my money, and they'll help me with the transformation that I desire, you can help them make that decision by showing up by allowing them to get to know you. And it may feel a little bit vulnerable, you know, like putting your face out there. Why do I have to do that. But you'd be surprised. And kind of the technique that I do want to do a brand photo shoot is at its storytelling. So we're creating different story buckets so that we're showing different sides of the business owner, so that there is some variety and interest when you're using these photos and putting them out there.

Alyson Lex 7:41
I had a photoshoot where I had a ton of pictures done. I think I bought all of them and there were like 90, not all of them are usable. But you know, that's my own personal body image issues anyway. Um, and I use them. I use them everywhere. I use them in, in everything. And it was absolutely worth the money because otherwise all I'd have are either those, you know, six superposed, JC Penney, headshots, or selfies, right? And so

Jennie Wright 8:17
what do you have against JC Penney overlaid headshots just asking for a friend.

Alyson Lex 8:22
There's nothing wrong with it. But when you only have three, and you really kind of hated your hips, so I was doing something for my husband that did involve a photo shoot that we don't talk about at work, but it was I had a boudoir shoot. And in order to surprise him, I couldn't come home with my hair all done. So I went to JC Penney, and had these headshots done and pretended that's why I was all made up. Okay, so I have these headshots, I did not. It did not care about them. They just existed, but they were all I had. And so now I have ones that showcase my personality and showcase my cult like colourfulness and all of that. And I use them everywhere. So that's, that's why I have something against the JC Penney hyper post headshots. Anyway,

Jennie Wright 9:09
I was just honestly pulling your leg. I knew I knew that I knew the backstory. I know that you

Alyson Lex 9:14
sent me off. You sent me off on a whole tangent and Natalie's like, Hi, we're my expertise bleeds. But the question that I actually have is, is there a place for those self taken candid photos, either selfie style or tripod style? Is there a place in our overall brand photography's strategy for that?

Nathalie Amlani 9:39
Yes, for sure. Absolutely. There's a place for everything for sure. And I just want to put it into perspective, like when you do invest in brand photography, for the ROI like you can essentially make back your investment by converting like one client, right, especially if you're offering like a high ticket offer, and I always encourage to mix Did with some authentic content? Right? So when you're out and about because part of the strategy of what I put clients through is to plan those story buckets. So then you start to know like, what else can I showcase with my photos? Right? So showcasing the behind the scenes, you starting off your day, you know, like perhaps sharing information teaching your your audience. So if you're having a day where you're feeling good about what you look like, or you want to show the behind the scenes, or perhaps one of your connection points with your audience is the love of nature. And your oats walking in, you see this amazing nature scene and you just want to capture it, go for it, because that is all about building connection and trust. And you can also kind of use those types of images through your like stories, right, like short form video content, Instagram Stories, for example. Because sometimes I'll find that there is like different types of audiences, who will consume both. And even in email marketing, there's a ton of people who will put like, just a raw image that they've taken with their phone into email marketing and tell a story, right, and it just feels like really real. So definitely mix it up. There is like a spot for everything, but be strategic about it, right. So there is definitely a way to be more intentional, so that you can connect with your audience, like if you find that there's certain images that people will reply back on. And they're like, oh, I can do more of that.

Jennie Wright 11:33
It's funny that you said that, because I try and use the strategy that you just shared. And one of the things that got a lot of interest is when we had the cherry blossoms here in Toronto, you and I are both Natalie and I are both in Toronto, and I went to High Park with my sister in law and took some pictures, and I put it on my Instagram stories. There was a lot of response from that. And it has nothing to do with my business. It was the fact that I took some time actually related to my business to be able to say this is this is why I do what I do. Because I can take off, you know, three, four hours in the middle of the day gonna be able to check out the really cool cherry blossoms, even though we got our heads bugged by some idiot with a drone, but we won't go there. That's totally right. He was driving me nuts, but going to see the cherry blossoms in Hyde Park. And if you're not from Toronto, go and google it, it's gorgeous. We had a really good time. But that got a lot of interest on Instagram, I'm not even kidding. So there is a place for all of it. Here's a here's the thing, something I want to wrap around this. So and this is really important to my side of what I do. Those images that you were talking about earlier, and how we can use them on sales pages, and launches and media kits and things like that. Those elevate your brand, and they elevate your business, but they also elevate your OPT in rates and your conversion rates. So you may not think that pictures matter. But they do so by taking as an example, and the client that you and I share, Natalie, because we were able to do a photo shoot the opt in pages for that particular client. And I'd love to hear some stories from you, that particular client and others like that person with headshots properly taken with brand photo shoot properly done by you, you know, whomever those pages convert better. So the opt in rate jumps, my data shows me that it jumps about 10%, which is a massive jump, so anywhere between five to 10%, which is a huge jump of people. So if you have 100 people landing on your landing page, right, and only 40 of them register, well, if we have a nice brand photography, and we can get that up to 50 that makes you know 10 more leads into your email list. Right? Big, it's a big deal. And on a sales page, by having proper brand photography on there, it elicits a feeling it creates an experience. And it in my opinion, sort of foreshadows the level of expertise, or professionalism, or clout, or all of that kind of stuff that they bring to the table. Does that make sense? Does that sort of resonate with your feeling on you know, what you're trying to create when you're doing the photoshoots?

Nathalie Amlani 14:14
Yes, absolutely. It's really giving the audience a taste of what to expect, right for them to get a peek a behind the scenes view for them to start to imagine themselves working with that person. So even with like coaches and course creators, for example, I'll always be like, let's try to throw in having you talk to someone like and kind of capturing those candid behind the scenes views, because then when someone's looking at that picture, they're like, I can imagine myself working with that person, you know, and then they start to see themselves in that transformation already. So then you're already like, sold. You know what I mean? Like they're already in

Alyson Lex 15:00
Like how? I mean, obviously a second everything Johnny said, because it's really hard for me to admit, as a copywriter that images matter. And it's an ego hit because I want to think the words on the page is all that matters, but it's not. And do you do any work with supporting your messaging? And your image? Like, how do you make all of that get married? When it comes time to put these shoots and these plans and these strategies together with the brand messaging and the brand imagery?

Nathalie Amlani 15:33
Yeah, so that's a good question. And I mean, visual complements really well with words, right, just like any picture storybook, right, you'll have the kind of drawing illustration, and then the words, and it's all done because people consume content differently. And when you have both, then it really supports each other really well. And it creates that stronger message. Just like some people prefer to listen to audiobooks versus reading, I'm kind of a mix of both. I think I might go back to reading words on paper, but I mean, it's really like it, you know, like depends. So through the planning process, it is a storytelling technique. So I create content pockets. And during the shoot, I do talk about like, Okay, let's do this, because I feel like this, you know, you can use the images in this way, right. And then at the end of the shoot, there is like a download that I'll spend them on, like the different ways to use your branding photoshoot. You're like writing photos. So there's lots of different ways to feed your images in different mediums like, I don't know, where it's like website, social media, downloadables, and whatnot. And then in terms of the content, I do kind of teach about ways to structure your social media kind of framework in terms of having like a hook your main content and call to action. But beyond that, I do really encourage them one to just, you know, tell the story from the heart like storytelling, but do it in a way that's a little bit more shorter and concise for social media. But it's also like working with a copywriter. If, if that's not their skill set, it's not for everyone, right? So

Alyson Lex 17:19
reach out, preach it. You're saying don't do it.

Jennie Wright 17:23
Don't build funnels. If you don't know how I don't write my own copy anymore. I can write copy. But why would I write copy when my best friend is a directionals? copywriter?

Alyson Lex 17:34
I'm not allowed. I'm actually surprised that Jenny lets me have the password to my Clickfunnels account.

Jennie Wright 17:41
I've I've threatened to change it several times that in Canva, because yeah,

Alyson Lex 17:45
she should never take away my Canva Oh, I would be so mad at

Jennie Wright 17:48
you. Just Just so we're clear. It's my Canva Oh, it's totally hard. Almost. We share we share a Canva anyways, gone.

Alyson Lex 18:00
No, I didn't mean to interrupt you. But yes, like when it comes to building your brand, and having the right strategy for your photos and your your imagery. Don't do it on your own. And because that like having that information about, here's how to use the pictures, here's some ideas, here's how the structure to make sure you stay on point with your brand messaging. That's invaluable. That's expertise that people pay you for. So thank you for sharing that. Yeah, I don't

Nathalie Amlani 18:38
we I always like to think forward and fake. So I'll ask them like, what do you have coming up? Do you have any launches plans? Are there any key calendar dates that your business kind of promotes or celebrates, like, and that's especially relevant for product based businesses. And we start to create that content, like capture it visually, so that when they're ready to feed it into their marketing or give it to their copywriter or their social media team, then it's, it's already there. And then they can just feed it in.

Alyson Lex 19:14
Okay, so really quick, because you've mentioned that a couple of different story buckets. And you've mentioned this kind of throughout. And I've been taking notes because I've really liked to create lists. Obviously, you have professional brand photos as a type, but also within there. There's some behind the scenes type stuff, things you love you I think you mentioned walking in nature, maybe something from your personal life products that you sell, if you have something physical. Are there any other type of common story buckets that we should be looking to for photos?

Nathalie Amlani 19:49
Yeah, so I like having the story bucket where there's connection like with people so if you're a service space, and that could be you talking to your clients having a conversation if you Your business is virtual, then it's you talking into your computer or laptop or however like you're, you're kind of acting out your day, right? So you're showcasing a day in the life of. So yeah, because that really helps to imagine that like, because then people can see what it looks like. And also how you start your day how you plan. So let's say that for launch strategy, you I don't know, like, maybe you have some sort of map or posters or whatever, like you want to showcase that, right? Even when you're planning for like copywriting and stuff. What does that look like when you're doing that? What does your desk setup look like? How can people get to know you a little bit more? And see what you're really into? Do you have any quirks about you, that you can perhaps bring on? You know what I mean? Like,

Jennie Wright 20:47
I'm thinking of Alyson right now with partners right now.

Nathalie Amlani 20:51
And those are just really funny things to like, showcase. And then also, really knowing your audience, right? So let's say that your target audience are parents, maybe you're a parenting coach, and you want to showcase that, you get them and you can relate, then you might have, you know, throwing some family photos, are you interacting with your kids so that you're just more relatable? And people feel like they get me, right. So it's really like looking at the bigger picture, like what are my audience into, maybe they're into, I don't know, eating healthy or coffee. So then you'll you'll weave that in, because that's a connection point. And you also want to showcase that you are a knowledge experts and an expert in your field. So you can either illustrate you, maybe you have a goal to be a speaker, maybe you aren't actually there yet. Or maybe you are already speaking, I love taking those images of people presenting, right. And it's really easy to do it in a photoshoot even though you're really presenting to nobody, we can we can mock it. Right? And yeah, so kind of showing so because for the content buckets, it's like showcasing that you're an expert talking about you showing the be showing the behind the scenes. So that could be like planning or starting your day, or showcasing things that you love to do everyday or how your desk looks like, and then showcasing that people. So the like connection points. And if you're a product based business, you want to showcase how it looks like to use your product in every sort of scenario. And who's using it. Right. So oftentimes, for product shoots, I'll will like plan models and different types of models and really look at who is their target audience? And where would they buy it. So we'll leave and mock that up so that people can really, really imagine and immerse into that experience through the photos. All right.

Jennie Wright 22:47
You know, I love all this. So what kind of information is insanely important must never be left out that our, our listeners should give their future brand photographers. And if they're in Toronto, they should just contact you. And we'll have all that information all over the show notes by the way, shameless plug. But what should they give their photographers so that they have the best results from their session?

Nathalie Amlani 23:10
Yeah, so share as much as you can with your photographer be be really clear on your brand, right? So as a baseline, you really need to know like, your brand, the vibe. So I'll ask a bunch of questions like how do you want people to feel when they interact with your brand? Who is your target audience? Tell me more about them? What do they like to do? Like what like age? Are they? What gender like what like, what lifestyle do they live and because all of that is really important with picking the location for the shoot, how I'm going to shoot it, what it's going to look like. So being really honest, and also being so like really allowing yourself to be vulnerable and let go. So there's like there's, there's there's a heart framework that I kind of defined and like, ah is honing in on your brand vibe, right? So you want to share that with your photographers or anything like to do with the like mood. The look, the color II is the expertise and experience. So really telling your photographer like what do you good at? What do you like to talk about all the time, because then the photographer can then you know, hopefully pull that out and showcase that right because you want to position yourself as that expert and showcase the experiences that you bring to the table. And then a in the framework is allowing yourself to be vulnerable and let go. So part of creating that connection on the photoshoot and making it successful is creating that connection with your photographer because you'll essentially be working one on one with them. Right so you want to be comfortable if there's things that make you uncomfortable there's, you know, certain angles that you don't like or certain I don't know, like maybe you've you've had some bad experiences or there's certain things about you that you don't find flattering or maybe there's certain things about you that you love, and you want to showcase more of communicate everything, because a person won't know unless you tell them, right. And you don't want them to assume, even though we're, you know, like photographers, I don't always know, right, but it's just great to just lay it out on the table and allow yourself to be vulnerable in the process. And then our is relatable relationships. So that is, you know, knowing your audience, but sharing that with your photographers so that they can really step into the shoes of who you are, and your brand to help you portray it. Because they may not be an expert in your field, and whatnot, right? So you kind of want to get them up to speed a little bit. And don't assume that they'll do their own research, right? Just tell them like, this is my brand, this is my business. And this is what it's all about. Like, just give them the one a wine as if they don't know. And then T in the heart framework is time to nurture yourself and creativity. So sometimes, you know, it can be daunting to think about what you would want to capture in the photoshoot. So creativity can't be rushed. So take the time to nurture your soul, your heart, your body, and you will start to just come up with all the ideas. And some photographers will be experienced and will be able to help you plan it, and then others won't. So it may kind of rely a little bit on you. So you want to kind of get your creative juices flowing and just show them some inspiration. So could be you already know or if you're not really sure, take some time to create a Pinterest board quickly. You can even take 10 minutes and just show some inspiration photos, or if there's any inspiration images at all, like maybe someone else's account someone you admire. That's totally okay, you can just share it. And that way, it just helps to get everyone on the same page. And that way you'll get exactly what you want.

Alyson Lex 27:06
Okay, so first, I have a question because I'm going to ask you in a second to repeat the words in heart and for me, because I didn't retain them. ADHD is fun. But second, that's kind of what I did with my photographer when I had a brand session. And I basically gave her my entire life story and everything she ever wanted to know plus some. And what it did was it made it absolutely seamless for us on site to collaborate and work together and create some really fun shots because that's part of my brand is the fun and the cork and the silly and we have some amazing photos because of that pre work that I put into it that she was then able to put into it. And

Jennie Wright 27:57
an attention I got to see every single outfit and we voted on it and there was a thing and it was the whole thing but yeah, like what she knows I'm like no, not the chunky black shoe. She's like, I'm using the black shoes anyways. I'm like no,

Alyson Lex 28:11
I love them. And they remind me of high school, um, make me feel young dang it. But it really is that important to sit there and be like, Okay, these are the emotions that I want to invoke. And these are the this is how I want to come across and this is this is what my business is about. This is what I'm about. Yes. And then I really did like what you said about letting yourself just get in the moment being like the first 10 minutes I think or 20 minutes of every photoshoot are awkward as all get out. Yeah, for sure. But then get yourself into it. Yeah. So can you quickly repeat what those words are in heart because I want to write them down? Yeah, so

Nathalie Amlani 28:58
age is hone in on your brand five E is expertise and experience. A is allowing yourself to be vulnerable and let go. R is relatable relationships. And t is time to nurture yourself and creativity.

Alyson Lex 29:18
I love that Yes. Do you help people figure out their brand vibe What if we what if they don't know? Do you help with that at all? Um, I will

Nathalie Amlani 29:31
ask them questions and usually I can start to get it out just you know asking different questions on like, how do you want people to feel what are the moods and emotions? What are some key words that come up? So kind of asking the same question in different ways to get the answer and then also when I'm talking to them like because I always want to talk to my clients and have that consult and we also have like a planning our together then it really helps me I can hone in on that.

Jennie Wright 29:59
I was on your planning call with the client that we did the photoshoot with. And that was, I've never been on a planning call for a photoshoot like you're the only photographer, or brand photographer that I've ever worked with. It's done that and I thought it was an invaluable piece because not only did you come prepared, I mean, there was a Google sheet. And Allison loves Google Sheets. This was Alison, this was like super cramped, and she had buckets, and she had like a timeline at 740, we're gonna be here, and we have 10 minutes of travel time, and then we're gonna go here, and then we're gonna do this. And she was like, it was exciting. It actually got you excited for the photoshoot. And then we even went over it like I was allowed. I don't even know why I was allowed to talk on that call. But I was allowed to talk on that call, which was great. So I was like, hey, what about this like, and you were you were just you were just very, you know, was just very good to have you on that. Which was cool. And then the thing I kind of wanted to wrap up with because I mean, we could keep talking, and we're probably gonna have to have you back for a completely different episode. But I really want to talk about how this is what you do, and you're really good at it. And how can people find you? How can they connect with you. So tell us more about that information so we can get people to get their eyeballs on what you're doing? Yeah,

Nathalie Amlani 31:14
so I love doing this. And it's like, I never expected to be doing what I do, like, a large part of my career was corporates, I was doing project management in the banks for like, 17 years. And I went to business school, and I gravitated towards the kind of marketing and strategy courses. So when I started photography, I was shooting families, but I was like, Oh, I miss doing a little bit more of that strategy work, you know, like, I've always had that creative bone in my body. So it's inevitable that I'm doing photography. But I love the strategic piece, I love that kind of bigger picture. And I'm also highly intuitive. So working with people one on one, and kind of helping them see that bigger picture and pulling out all the I don't know, like, that's like pulling everything out, and being able to map it out. And then putting putting into buckets, you know, just like organizing and then planning the logistics of the day is I mean, I'm a project manager, it's it's like ingrained in me, I can't help it. So that's why I really love what I do. And I see the results, I see people really converting their audiences expanding, and they show up differently. They're showing up with confidence. So it's something that I really, really highly encourage, I love to hang out on Instagram, and LinkedIn. So those are kind of my two homes right now on Instagram is picked on that branding creative. And then my website is picked on And I actually named it picked on him because when I was taking it was like this business of photography course. And they're like, Okay, it was it was old school, they're like, now you got to create letterhead, and you know, to create stationery and all that. And you have to think of a business name. And I was like, I don't know. So I just said, you know, pictures by Natalie Pictou not and I created this like logo really quickly on the spot. And then I don't even know, like I think five years later, is when I actually started and left my corporate job to start my company. I just like my husband was like, why don't you just use that, like we already bought the domain? Yeah, so we had bought the domain. I'm like, okay, so then that's just how that name was born. And that's how you can find me picked on it.

Alyson Lex 33:38
We will have links to all of that on the show notes system to And this is episode 179. So system to 179. To go ahead will link directly to the website. And I think you also have, like 12 ways to use your brand photos download, which will link directly to that as well. So we'll make sure people can get in touch with you. They're

Nathalie Amlani 34:00

Jennie Wright 34:03
Alright, well, this was amazing. Thank you so much for doing this with us. We really, really appreciate it. There was so much information here. If you haven't already get your brand photoshoots done. The funnel builder in me begs you, please do it. And also you have good stuff for social media and it also complements what Allison does, which is copywriting. So get them done. Have them you know have them for your business and everything like that. And if you need help with it and you're in Toronto or you want to fly Natalie to some awesome location, find her contact her and she can come do that for you. I just basically volunteered you for travel. Sorry, but could be fun. Alright, everybody, thanks so much for listening. Make sure you're following the podcast wherever it is that you listen to podcasts and check out the show notes at system to forward slash 179 And we'll see you all soon. Take care



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