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Being a guest on podcasts is about MORE than simply connecting with anyone that has a podcast. It’s about finding the RIGHT FIT for you – and being intentional about the connections you make.

Paul Zelizer, the host of the top-rated podcast Awarepreneurs, brings insight from the other side of the mic about what makes a great guest, how to choose the right fit for shows to appear on, and how to do it in a way that’s transparent, authentic, and an integral part of growing your business.

Mentioned in Today’s Episode:
ListenNotes
The lean startup
Turning pro
Otter.ai
Uber Suggest – AI Software for SEO
Paul’s Website
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Episode 24 – How Podcasts Generate Leads For Your Business with Brent Basham
Episode 53 – The Real Secret to Podcasting Success with Mark Aisquith
Episode 65 – The Unicorn Guest – How to get booked over and over on virtual events & podcasts with Nancy Juetten

Alyson Lex 0:02
In my time as a business owner as a copywriter, and as a podcaster, I have met a lot of people who want to be a guest on podcasts. But what I haven't seen a ton of are people who have a really solid strategy for turning that exposure and those relationships into real, meaningful differences, measurable results in their businesses. That's why we knew we needed to have an episode on this. That's why we have Paul Zelizer, the host of the aware printers podcast, which is one of the top I think, 2% podcasts in the world. He's the CEO of aware of printers. He's a conscious business coach, and he knows exactly what it takes to leverage podcast guesting to be a really big deal in your business. So Paul, thank you so much for being here.

Paul Zelizer 0:56
Oh, thanks so much for having me, Alyson and Jennie and congratulations on what you built with this System to THRIVE podcast, it's just fabulous to see podcasters doing what you all do so well.

Alyson Lex 1:07
Thank you so much. We really appreciate that. What should we be looking for? Why should we look to be a guest on other people's podcasts?

Paul Zelizer 1:20
That's a great question, Allison. I am a Jew, culturally. And if you ask a question, one of two things is likely to happen. You're either gonna oftentimes get a question back, or you're going to get a story. And I'd like to tell you a story in that spirit. So listeners think for a minute, if you were in the situation, somebody said to you, Hey, I can pay you. But I have an opportunity for you that I think might be interesting. I will put together an audience, maybe back in the COVID, pre COVID days, a physical audience. Remember, when humans used to get together in large groups? We could do that. I know. Can we go that we do that? again. I like I like humans, but anyway, I'm going to get 5000 people together. Right. And they are just raving fans about what you're really knowledgeable about. They want new ideas and innovations. And they are incredibly passionate to sit down and learn from somebody like yourself. And I'll give you 43 minutes. And you can talk really in depth in nuance about what you're doing. The average podcast episode is 43 minutes long. And at the end of that you could Pitch Anything you want in a relational way. would you do it? Right. And think for a minute listeners 5000 people, there's podcasts that get 50,000 downloads per episode, there's podcasts, get 500,000 downloads an episode, right? So if you're smart, what the opportunity being a guest on a podcast is leveraging an audience that somebody else built. Alyson You and Jennie have worked really hard to build this podcast, I'm a podcast host, I know what it takes, right. And if the host has done it, well, you have an opportunity to walk on that stage. And then to wave goodbye. And the hosts are going to take care of all the logistics of editing it and distributing it and building the audience from a couple 100 people to potentially hundreds of 1000s or millions of people downloads per episode that you just show up and do share your information in a really good hearted, generous, I want to help the listener kind of way. And if you do a good job of that. I don't know too many equivalents where you get so much opportunity to get in front of really nuanced audiences if you know how to find them. And we'll talk about that in this podcast, larger podcast with really alive audiences and you come on and bring really good information to that. I don't know of anything else quite liked it. That's so much fun. That's so relational and can get you in front of as many people per time unit invested. There's nothing I know. And I've been in business 14 years that can come close.

Jennie Wright 4:16
Yeah, I hear that. And I mean, it's one of the platforms that I never thought I'd be involved in ever. But you know, sort of jumped in to feet first and prayed that I would be okay. But working with a coves with like Allison is great. It's helpful. When when we look at for like what, let me explain this. I'm saying this incorrectly. What should we look for in a podcast when we're searching as a potential guest? What are the things that we should see? What are the little things maybe the red flags? Tell me the things that are going to make sense for me to look for?

Paul Zelizer 4:54
That's a great question, Jenny. So we want to find an audience. That's significant. Enough and aligned enough that it's worth your time, right? So significant enough, let's just ROI like I'm about impact and income. Right? Those are the two things I like to help people with. How do you live a good life, I'm not trying to live on a castle on a hill or private jet plane rich. I just want to help people do good work, and make enough to live a good life and go trail running and buy my next pair of trail running shoes. I just got back from Lake Mead on a four and a half day trail running adventure. It was amazing, right? I want to live a good life, I want to eat good food, I want to be healthy. I want to you know, support good people, and have experiences that really enliven myself and my family, etc, etc. Right? That's who I work with. So if that's your boat, if you want to be a gazillionaire, I can't help you. That's not who I help. Right? I help people who have something about making the world a better place who want to live a good quality life. So if that's you listeners, great. If it's not, you might as well turn it off now because I'm I can't help you. If that is you. What we're looking for is an audience. First of all, I think it's really helpful to understand who listens to podcasts, podcast listeners are pretty exceptional group of humans and understanding this just by the fact that somebody regularly listens to podcasts. They're different than the average human. And the research tells us that they're different in a couple of significant ways. First of all, they're early adapters. In other words, people listen to podcast, love, new ideas, love innovation, and they're looking for out of the box thoughts. So if you have an in the box, I teach exactly what everybody else in my industry teaches. Again, not sure I can help you that much go figure it out somewhere else, right. But you do something that's really innovative, and you do it with nuance, and you do with care. That's why people listen to podcasts, they want new ideas, fabulous opportunity. They also are natural leaders. So both professionally and in their personal networks, people look to them and say, Hey, Alyson, and Danny you always know the coolest stuff, right? You know, the coolest stuff in this community that we're in, whether it's an entrepreneur, community, or trail running community, or knitting community, you're just you're always got great new ideas. And people listen to podcasts, because they're natural leaders. And they go to podcasts that you know, that maybe we still do, but back in the day, I used to have 13 books at my bedside table. And I was reading like all, you know, okay, Chapter Two on this on a chapter. So but podcasts is you can get main ideas faster. You can mainline ideas faster than it takes to read a book. And I can read pretty fast. So anyway, getting new ideas to keep your network kind of on top of how things are working now in this shared passion that you have. And lastly, podcast listeners make more money, not a little bit more money, a lot more money. So you put that all together and you understand who's listening. And it's like, ooh, when I found out those details, I went from being like podcasting. I'm busy to like, What did you just say? Tell me more about that. Right. That's why innovators and new ideas and natural leaders and they make more money. Oh, sign me up. I'm all over that. Right. So that's one thing is just by the fact that somebody is regularly listening to anybody's podcast. That's what the research tells us. Ooh, that's a really cool idea.

So having said that, what we're looking for, to really move the needle in terms of growing a business is you want podcast listeners that are excited about your topic. So any podcast listeners, great, but like, let's not just be random about it, how do you find podcasts, where there's both enough people listening, and I don't think you need 50,000 downloads in Episode 500. In many situations, if it's a niche audience, can be really, really helpful. If you can also find one that's a really aligned with your topic and your skill set. And they have you know, 50,000 downloads. That's awesome. So one of my favorite tools. And that's actually how we connected is the world's first podcast specific search engine is called listen notes. Listen, notes.com I believe it is. And what it is, is just like Google, you just type it in. But it's all about podcasts, both podcasts themselves and episodes on certain topics. So for instance, I'm really excited about social entrepreneurship and conscious business. You could do marketing, whatever your topic is, if you go on to listen notes, and you type it in just like you would in Google at that white box at the top of it. It'll return for you. Both podcasts and episodes on. They're very well ranked using an algorithm that's different but similar to the idea of how Google gives you certain results for certain keywords. And it's a game changer. It's a game changer, it helps you quickly find there's other strategies. But that one, if somebody was going to take only one thing to try from this interview, I'd say, go check out listen notes right there on the page, it gives you data about the podcast and kind of how it ranks in the echo system of podcasts. Is that a 1%? podcast? You know, in other words, it's in the top one percentile of all podcasts in the world, or is it like 75th percentile. In other words, 75% of the podcasts, have more listeners and more iTunes ratings, etc. Yes, metrics are imperfect. But the fact that it's right there, and you can put a keyword in on any topic that you're passionate about, and figure out which podcasts have listeners and have a history and a built a community, it's a pretty amazing tool and starts to move the needle much more quickly than a lot of other marketing strategies that I've learned about.

Alyson Lex 11:02
I have played on lists and notes, but not dug in to the level that I think you're talking about. And now I just kind of want to go do that. So interview over, just going to go play on this

Paul Zelizer 11:14
side, it's great to see you all thanks for having me.

Alyson Lex 11:18
Um, I also, you know, I love the idea of looking at the metrics, but one of the things that has been that kind of successful for me is actually giving quote unquote, the little guys a shot. And, you know, the big, the bigger audiences, the bigger names, whatever, yes, they might drive a little bit more traffic here and there, but I have gotten really consistent good results from the little shows, because their audience is so super niched in that I'm able to really tailor what I'm talking about. Like I did, I did one for lawyers, and every example that I was able to give was super lawyer driven. Whereas on a general marketing podcast it I'm more broad, right. So does that. Like, is it okay to go with a smaller reach for that more niche?

Paul Zelizer 12:16
Absolutely. That's a great question. I also did, I would suggest, like, in the entrepreneur space, if you are a podcaster, you've heard about entrepreneurs on fire, or if you haven't, go check it out. It's like one of the biggest podcasts in the space john Lee Dumas, you know, he's really knowledgeable. I have not been a guest on entrepreneurs on fire, it's, you know, you have to be a pretty significant platform. And I don't know, I haven't, I haven't been a guest there. So everybody who's an entrepreneur is thinking about those like top point 1% podcasts, right? But actually, that's not my ideal audience. And I'm using myself just as an example, to help illustrate what you're talking about awesome. I'm really niched, in looking at social entrepreneurship. And actually, entrepreneurs on fire is not particularly purposed, or values based examples of who they have on the show. Not that it's wrong or bad. But it's not even though if I were to be a guest there, I'd get many, many, many people listen to it more than somebody has a more niche podcast that's more purpose based or social entrepreneurship or social impact oriented, a podcast that has a you know, Tony Lloyd social entrepreneur podcast, I was a guest on and had him on as well. And that's a much more niche audience who understand with more nuance and cares about some of the things that I'm passionate about and have been working on for 14 years. And I can provide more value than a more average entrepreneur podcast. Same thing, if you're, let's use your lawyer, let's say you are interested in collaborative divorce, and your lawyer, right? Thinking of somebody in my network, and that's her thing. So a general like the biggest lawyer podcast may not be as specific as a podcast that's very specific about family law, right? Or Divorce Law, etc. And if you can bring a level of insight and awareness and nuance and depth that's really crisp, hey, Family Lawyers, don't you hate it when you just spend like, years and years and years fighting it out? And dah, dah, dah. And like, there is another approach and let's talk about it. And they're already dealing with divorces, as opposed to somebody who's doing business law and they're like, what's this collaborative divorce thing? I have no interest whatsoever, completely irrelevant. You just wasted my time. Thank you very much. Right. So yes, Allison. That's a fabulous point. And when I go to listen notes, I'm more looking for some of those longtail keyword searches, right, that are more niche for some of the things I am passionate about. Same thing my clients, I really encourage them to look a little deeper than just entrepreneurship or marketing or wellness. But to go a little deeper and find a more closer alignment, you're much more likely To see return on investment in terms of people after the podcast saying, hey, Jenny, I loved hearing you as a guest. And I want to hear more about your services, because what you were talking about is exactly what I'm interested in.

Alyson Lex 15:13
Exactly. And it's so funny that you brought up that podcast because that's the one that I was on, that I was thinking about. And this was Oh, five or six years ago, and I got a lot of leads. But I didn't get the people that like you just said, Hey, Alison, I'm so excited. This is exactly what I need. Because it wasn't as niched in. So I really love that you brought that example up. You also brought up something, because that is a top popular podcast, and you are a top podcast. I know you can give us some dish, some scoop. What makes potential guests really stand out. Among all the pitches that you get I know Jenny, and I have tons of answers. But

Paul Zelizer 15:59
we want to hear love to hear what you all have to say about that. Boy, we could riff on that one, right? All the all the ones that don't stand out, well, here, here's what not to do, please do not cut and paste you the same pitch to like the one that you sent to 150 other podcast, just don't do it. Don't waste your time and don't waste mine. I don't waste any don't waste out. Like podcast hosts. I don't know what you all get. I get about two to 300 a week. At this point for aware printers pitches to be full transparent. I'm on a bunch of lists like PR firms and podcast agencies, you know, podcasting is really blown up at a certain point in 2020, you couldn't buy a podcast mic on planet Earth, they were backordered. And they just they were like, I don't know, we'll get them in eventually. Good luck with that. Like, literally, that's what happened in the past year with podcasting. So please be mindful that podcast, guests are busy. We've invested years of our lives if we built the show, you know, to really start to get traction is not unless you're Michelle Obama, and then you like turn on your podcast, and you get hundreds of 1000s of downloads just because you're Michelle Obama, right? How cool to be that that's not how it works. For most podcasters, it's been years of your life, doing something once a week or twice a week or twice a month with a great deal of care as a lot of work that goes on behind the scenes. If you can't be bothered to like, do something that is mindful of who the hosts are and what their show is about. Like, don't waste your time with this strategy. Just go somewhere else. So flip that around, put some time and care into like when I write a pitch to a show I did this with you. All right. I said, hey, look, first of all, congratulations on what you built. I know what it takes, you know, to as a host to build a show, just thank them, appreciate them. acknowledge that there's work and time and care to build a show that people want to listen to. Anybody can start a podcast, anybody. It's really democratic. Not anybody can build a show that people actually want to listen to at scale.

Jennie Wright 18:09
This is very, very true.

Paul Zelizer 18:10
All right. Yeah. No, that's okay. So you all know, right? So if somebody built something that has listenership and then you're like trying to get on their stage, let's say, of 5000 people, and they did all the work to get the 5000 people in the room about your topic. Please start with acknowledgement. Thank you, Jenny. And Alyson, for what you've done.

Jennie Wright 18:33
That's what made you stand out to us. Because when you made your pitch to come on our podcast, which by the way, we're very, like, what's this big? You know, at the time, we're like, what's this really big podcast are wanting to do with our show, but yeah, but the fact that you actually stood out by doing this, you, you know, you checked out our website, and you did the congratulations thing. And you obviously listened to an episode or two, because you mentioned them, and it made us feel like you understood what we were trying to do. And it made us feel like you gave a crap, we get a lot, we get a lot of pitches, we're not getting the volume of pitches that you are, but we're getting a lot of pitches. And it feels a little bit like carpet bombing, because it is total spray and pray. I know I'm using some weird terminology here. But it is really not nation. And they're not. They're not even paying attention to the process that Alison and I have already set up and we didn't set up a terrible process. It is literally, if you're interested, click this link, fill out the form. We'll be in touch. But we're getting the Hey, we have so and so this beautiful guru over here, and they want to be on you know, and if you'd like them to be on your thing, you can click a link and book a call on their resume.

Paul Zelizer 19:49
No, no, no, no.

Jennie Wright 19:52
And go through their process. No, we're gonna stick with our process. Thank you. We appreciate that. But we know that you went through this with us. I just wanted to acknowledge that it, it helped. And it made it stand out. I actually had a conversation from I was on a clubhouse about a week ago. And somebody dm to me from that clubhouse, this person, and he was like, Oh, you're amazing, let's connect. And I was like, cool. Maybe he has a podcast, he wants me to be on. And we were, we were going back and forth, and DMS and everything, and he was actually pitching me. He was pitching me so that he could sell me on how to improve my bio, and improve my pitch for podcasting and things like that. And then he was gonna, you know, there was a certain platform that he was a part of, and the platform, I think the cost was 15, that $14,000 that he was trying to pitch me on. And it just, it didn't come off the right way. So I mentioned that because there are a lot of styles, and there are spammy people out there. And I'd love if we could stick to the authentic, like the authentic side of things. Yeah. And that's a really good segue into the next question I have for you, which is how do we build real relationships with a podcast host? During the interview, pre interview post interview? How do we do that effectively?

Paul Zelizer 21:11
That's a great question, Danny. First of all, I just want to go back to the previous question. So after you say, you know, thank you for what you built, then take, take a look, listen to an episode or at the bare minimum, scan through what the past 10 or 12 titles have been, and try to find something that you're really good at that it looks like that community you think they could really benefit from, right? Like you could tell, I think, maybe listeners, I'm pretty passionate about podcasting. And I've tried to say why. And I thought that the System to THRIVE community could really benefit. Like, I looked down and there wasn't a lot of conversation in the episodes that this topic, I thought I thought it could really help your listeners and your community by having a more robust conversation about that. And it's something that I'm passionate about. And I've been on both sides more times than I can count. So anyway, I just wanted to finish that thought, once you're on great questions, Edie. And one of the things again, here's what not to do, okay? Imagine, energetically, we're in front of 5000 or 500 people, right? And like you get on the stage, and you don't even acknowledge the person who got 500 people or 5000, or 50,000 people in the room for you to talk to. It's like, how horrible would it be if I like, Hi, Jenny, and Alison, you don't exist. I'm just here to like, talk to the humans that you've been working so long to get together and who respect and adore you. But like you don't even exist, because I'm trying to transactionally relate to those people in the audience as if they're human wallets. And I'm going to separate the money as fast as I can, right? Don't do that. listeners, please. Right? In this case, do any analysis. Or if you come out of where printers Paul or whoever is, the host has put years of their life. And if they have listeners, it's because those listeners care. Trust know, like and trust we say in the conscious business world know, like and trust. So acknowledge the host and respect the know like and trust that the audience has your guest in your I see myself as a guest in your business living room, Alison, and Danny, it's an honor to be there and don't come in and start getting all egotistical. I'm no smarter. No, no, no, thank you for having me in your home. Thank you for feeding me. It's an honor to be here. What a beautiful home you have, as you know, you don't have to overdo it. But please, folks, acknowledge that you're there as a guest. It's literally in the title of the role. Say thank you to the host be appreciative and relational and don't just grab the mic and go off on an ego trip.

Alyson Lex 23:52
That is, I think I've been not I think I've been following your rules without knowing I was following your rules. Because a lot of times I get so caught up in the conversation that I'm having that I kind of forget that it's a podcast. It just feels like I'm sharing information. I do you get into teaching mode, you know, all of those things. And I think that that is really what works is you just live in the conversation you're having and trust the host to direct it in the way that their listeners need to hear it.

Paul Zelizer 24:27
Yeah.

Alyson Lex 24:28
I think that's a big one too. Right?

Paul Zelizer 24:31
Yeah. You all know your audience. You've been relating with them for years. Right? Yeah, absolutely. The way that again, using I don't know why I'm I'm a pretty embodied guy, but I don't know why I'm so many images of like face to face. Think of it as like a fireside chat. I remember going to a fireside chat. My brother and sister in law used to live in Washington, DC area, and they were part of the 70 1776 co working space. And the gentlemen who wrote the Lean Startup was there and they Did a fireside chat It was so cool. This was back when not everybody had heard about the lean startup. And I'd read the book and I'm a big fan. And Jennifer was the founder of 1776. And there were 100. There were so many people that people sitting on the radio like the fire marshals, thank God, they weren't in the room, because everybody and I was there, my brother and I went, and it was fabulous. Because, you know, somebody started one of the best known co working spaces in the East Coast of the US. And somebody literally wrote the book on the Lean Startup had this warm relational, it was very informative, but it wasn't like Welcome to my TED Talk. It was this relational like, sharing stories and tidbits of wisdom. The ever, you could just feel everybody in the room was like, on their seat waiting for the next part of the dialogue. And they created an experience that was I this is many, many years later, and I can still remember what it was like to sit in that room. Right? They did. They did us all a huge favor. Because not only was the information great, but the relational container they shared it in was such that it was I'll never forget what was shared in that room. And how many presentations do we go to that have great info, but we forget as soon as we walk out the door or as soon as the podcast is over, right? So if we can create those kind of dialogues, yes, bring the information, but try to bring in relational self as much as you humanly possibly can. And that's why people listen to podcasts as opposed to buy an audio book on marketing or something like that.

Alyson Lex 26:38
I think too, you know, it's, it's fitting that you answered my very first question with the story. Because stories have that kind of holding value, they have that longevity when in our memories, we remember stories much better than we remember information, which is why I like acronyms so much. And Jenny, Jenny, and I joke all the time. She's not an acronym lover, I am. But most acronyms have a story, or mnemonic devices have a story as to why they work for me. And I remember the story more than the device itself, or the information itself. So how can we turn those episodes and those relationships into that measurable result for our business, like pitching your stuff without feeling gross? Or how do we follow up the right way? What do we do to actually generate those measurable results?

Paul Zelizer 27:33
That's a great question. So this is an audio only podcast if I remember correctly, right? Yeah. So you can't see it listeners, but I'm holding something up for Jenny analysis. You can hear it. Yeah, that is a journal. What is that journal that is piles podcast guesting journal. So why is Paul talking about a podcast guesting journal? If you want to get good at something, there's a great book turning pro, right? You all are shaking your head turning pro, right? You want to turn pro? If you really want to make podcasts guesting a thing that you get really good at, just like giving a TED talk. You don't get on a TED talk stage, having practiced your TED talk once. It doesn't work that way.

Jennie Wright 28:18
Right? Not at all. Not at all. You've got to practice it,

Paul Zelizer 28:21
you've got to practice it. You don't like write a world class novel with your first draft, right? People talk about in the writing space, your crappy first draft. So the way you get really effective at being a podcast guest is you practice and pay attention and nuance. And I'm a big believer in creating space for something you want to get good at. So having a I have a podcast guest journal on one of my topics that I've guest on frequently is grow your impact business or grow your business or grow your social, you know, entrepreneur, you know, venture your social venture with a podcast tour, I've done it more times than I can count. And when I do it, I make notes. Oh, and I did it with Allison Denny, this went really well. This part felt a little flat. Here's some stories I've told right. So it's not scripted, but it's a conversation that I have had more than one, shall we say? Right? And so then you can be at ease and pay attention to the relationality. I also have this is part of going back to your question earlier, Alison, rocking it as a guest. I have five points that I tend to make. You know, think about the context of like, what it's like to be invited on the stage. How do you find listen notes is one but we could talk about pot it and we can talk about matchmaker in a lots of different podcasts, specific guesting platforms, Facebook groups, right? got at least three of them. So got at least a half a dozen ways you can find great podcasts to be on etc, etc. all on this. So the content is there. There's bullet points that I've tested through time and my ability to then show up and be relational Knowing I've got the talking points in my front pocket, and as we get into the content area, kind of have a sense of what tends to land well in certain nervous systems, certain kinds of humans and communities. And then I can focus on being relational, and still deliver information that an audience can hopefully find very actionable and really useful. And then when it comes time and somebody says, Hey, what do you do ball or somebody wanted to get a hold of you like, I also practice that part as well.

Jennie Wright 30:35
I think that's a really good idea. I remember the first podcast I ever did. I wasn't that good. I just really wasn't, but it wasn't because I mean, I did. I did take notes afterwards, I thought, wow, okay. I was really nervous. There were things I said I shouldn't have. There was words that I, you know, probably shouldn't have used. I've tried to eliminate the hums and ahhs, like, I really got very cognizant of how I talk. Because the things that drove me nuts, listening to podcasts, and I listen to podcasts all the time, I'll binge an entire person's entire download. I'll do all of them, all of them. And the little things that came up that drove me nuts I would see in myself. So I've tried to eliminate it, the thing I haven't perfected, which I'm still working on is the storytelling. I've never been a great storyteller. But it is something that I I hope to be something that I work on. And I would say that for all the stuff that you did talk about, Paul, you have embodied it here. I mean, you've been relational and transactional and are not transactional, sorry, relational, and those types of things. And it's been really, it's been a really good experience to have you on. And I want to ask you a question. And you've said a couple times now great questions. By the way, I didn't write them. Allison did. I can't take credit.

Paul Zelizer 31:54
For any great hosting.

Jennie Wright 31:58
I do want to ask you a question that is not on your list. We warned you this might happen. And it's something that came up because it's something you said earlier, you said some podcasts are getting 20,000 50,000 and 100,000 500,000 downloads per episode. And I just want to ask you a little bit off the cuff here. What do you think is the best strategy for growing your downloads? Would it be having podcast guests like yourself? Come on? And then that person goes and speaks about your podcasts on social media? Or is there a better strategy?

Paul Zelizer 32:30
That's a great question. So we have a whole podcast access team for wire printers. So we talked about this a lot. And there's there's a couple of things I would suggest. One is if you're going to just like without being singular about metrics, I think paying attention to metrics can help. So just like being a guest, would you rather be a guest, were using an in person audience where there were two people in the audience or 20,000 people in the audience, it makes a difference. If you also pay attention to values, alignment and other things. Flip it around. Same thing, if you're going to go through the trouble of making a podcast and if it does have any connection to a business and earning money in any way, shape, or form metrics can be useful. Don't get singularly focused. But when somebody pitches me, I certainly do. What's going on for them in Instagram, go take a look at LinkedIn, how many followers do they have? What kind of sort of social capital does this person bring? Because the idea of having when you're a host having guests who have larger audiences? Oh, wow, look at that. You know, Jenny has pretty significant entrepreneur audience and she comes on aware printers or whatever podcast, she then goes back to her newsletter or social platforms and says I loved loved loved being just like being a great guest. There are some skill sets beyond this podcast, being a great host. We can talk about that. You all have done a lot of work. You didn't just have me on Who are you again, what are we going to talk about, like you did some homework, and some things before we hit record that help being a host go well, don't do all that work with somebody who has two people on social media, one of them being her sister and the other one being, you know, her spouse. That's okay, we all start at the beginning. But if you want to grow it, guess with great topics out of the box, innovative edgy new topics, who also have platforms that at least some significant percentage of your guests through time have Platt marketing platforms that they can help you build just because you rocket as a host and their audiences listening. That's a great way to build through time. The other suggestion I have is some very simple SEO things. SEO is not always something that podcasters like to talk about. And actually, the medium by itself isn't very SEO friendly. Because if it's an audio only podcast, Google and other search engines actually can't search audio in and of itself. So we teach our podcasters in a way where printers do certain things like, I love a very affordable AI transcription service called the otter.ai. And you take your mp3 and you just upload it into otter and you'd get like six, there's a free version, but like for like 12 bucks a month, you get like 6000 minutes of transcription. And you posted a show notes, we call them the imperfect show notes. Because I don't want to go through the hour, it's 14 pages, usually then a Word document of the transcription of an aware printers episode, because our episodes are like 55 minutes long, and we have really dynamic conversations, you know, 10,000 words. We don't you know, it's rough. But that transcribed.

The transcription of the audio dialogue that we have allows it to be used as a long form blog post for Google and Google loves 10,000 word blog posts. And if you're intentional about the guest, and you're intentional about using certain keywords in the episode title, and you have a transcription, and you actually use that part of your site on WordPress, or Squarespace where it says write a little SEO description. And it just most podcasters won't do that a little bit of careful attention. You don't have to spend you don't have to be a genius. A matter of fact, there's another free service with SEO called Uber suggests one of my favorite marketers on the planet named Neil Patel created an AI software that's called Uber suggest go sign up for Uber suggests a free account is fine. And using some simple tools like that, like otter, and like Uber suggests, and like a little bit of two minutes when you post the episode to pay a little bit of attention to what keyword for that episode. And suddenly, you know, using ubersuggest aware printers has increased the number of people who found us via Seo 50 fold 50 x using a free service. We didn't use we used to get most of our listeners through word of mouth. And through the platforms of both the were printers and our guests. And now we get an equal or more number of people doing organic searches for things like social entrepreneurship and the other kinds of topics that we conscious business and other topics that we cover. And we've now used Uber suggests to say, hey, Uber suggests, teach Paul how to help us do better for these and we now get more than a third of our listeners from organic search.

Jennie Wright 38:04
I am so glad I asked them. I know I'm so glad I asked that question. I'm like, it's not on the list, but I'm going with it. I'm so glad that was incredible. And we're gonna add all of those links to the show notes so people can find those resources. We've talked about listen notes, the lean startup, turning pro otter.ai and Uber suggest and all of those are going to be in the show notes for people to find. So I'm really grateful that you shared

Paul Zelizer 38:31
those one more thing on that Yeah. And if you are a guest in your host doesn't use something like otter.ai you can many hosts I know I have been willing to will share the mp3 and so you can if you're a guest again remember a conscious guesting strategy. I love contest guesting. If your host doesn't do show notes or doesn't use something like otter.ai, you can request and say, Hey, would you mind if I got the raw mp3? I want to just run it through. I'll even share the transcription with you, right. But I want to use it for my own STI purposes in my own marketing just to just you know, it can never hurt to ask your host if you are going to go through the trouble of guessing you literally just taken and uploaded a daughter and it'll do all the transcriptions and then you can post it on your site with some of those same SEO strategies.

Alyson Lex 39:20
You could even embed if they're on Spotify, you can embed a Spotify player and create your own show notes page for the episode.

Paul Zelizer 39:27
Yes,

Alyson Lex 39:27
exactly. And I've done that but without the shownotes. So

Paul Zelizer 39:33
yeah, so just being intentional on either side in the mic that podcasting as a whole hasn't paid a lot of attention to SEO. And there's some great tools to you don't have to be an SEO genius literally AI will teach you what to do if you just go sign up and spend 10 minutes a week on Uber suggest you'll get better at AI for free. I mean that SEO for free.

Alyson Lex 39:57
That is awesome. So where can we find out more about you and where printers and all of the amazing stuff that you have going on?

Paul Zelizer 40:08
Thanks so much for that question Allison. So we're printers is that aware printers calm and the podcast episode if somebody's listening in, they're like, Oh my gosh, this is making a lot of sense. I want to like get more in depth about podcasting and the nuances of really growing a business with it. The thing we have for were printers that might make the most sense, we have a general membership, it's very affordable $25 a month, a couple 100 members, thinking about business done to optimize both impact and income. That's what our printer is all about. That's sort of where printers.com more specific to podcasting on both sides of the mic being both getting a lot of traction as a guest and getting a lot of traction as a host, is we have our podcast success team. And that's that aware of printers.com forward slash podcast dash success. And then I also do one on one and small group coaching for impact oriented entrepreneurs. And that's at Paul zelizer.com. Zhi Li Zi, er.

Jennie Wright 41:12
I really want that link again, for the podcast. Like the special. Where was it?

Paul Zelizer 41:18
Yeah, so we're printers.com forward slash podcast dash success. And that's our podcast success team. We do master classes every month, and we get into the nuances. We just did one last month, on how to find and book as a guest. And now, actually, next week, we're doing a masterclass on how to find and book bigger guests as a host people with bigger platforms, how do you research? What kind of tools are out there to find them? So they get really into the nuts and bolts of like, how do you really move the needle using podcasting on either side? Or in my case, I do both. So if you want to be both a host and a guest, but I think it's an incredible opportunity to grow a business. And it's also an incredible opportunity to waste a lot of time podcasting, yes, it just kind of depends on how much of the nuances Are you paying attention to, and being able to find right opportunities to guest and being successful as a guest. And we get into all of that. And we also, as a host, same thing can just absolutely just turbocharged your business or it could waste hours and hours and hours and hours and hours and hours and hours and hours of your time. And just how much are you understanding the platform who listens and some of these simple but very effective strategies that move the needle in terms of impact and income, not what we do in the podcast exists?

Jennie Wright 42:51
That's incredible. Paul, this has been like a little mini masterclass in itself. And we're both really excited that you've been here. I know the listeners are going to get so much from this. And again, we are going to link all of the things that Paul talked about in our show notes. So please go and check those out, as well as his podcast, which I already have been subscribed to for a while, and I do absolutely listen to. So I just want to say thank you, Paul, for being on today. And being such a conscious podcast guest.

Paul Zelizer 43:22
Thank you both for having me. And again, just congratulations on what you've built and how you've Yeah, how you show up in this podcast is just beautiful.

Jennie Wright 43:30
Thank you. I really appreciate that. I really appreciate that a lot, actually. And if you're listening to this episode, and you'd like to get more information just like this, please do subscribe to the podcast so that you don't miss any future episodes that Alison and I are putting out with our incredible guests like Paul which are coming out on Tuesdays. And then the interviews that we do just Alison and I on Thursdays that are coming out and then also on Mondays we do our quick tips, which we alternate either Allison on our own or myself on my own, sharing some quick tips to help your business grow. Thank you so much for being on and we will be back again soon answering another big question.